The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Thursday, May 01, 2014

Roswell Mogul Balloon Explanation: A Cover-Up by Anthony Bragalia

A physicist and meteorologist who was interviewed as part of the Roswell UFO crash investigation conducted by the US Air Force may have had far more influence and knowledge about the matter than has ever been realized. Rather than simply being one among many that were interviewed for the Air Force investigation (resulting in two official debunking reports issued in the 1990s) the scientist may have played an ongoing and far more secret role in forming the reports’ conclusions.

-          It is now known that the scientist, Charles B. Moore (who spent his last years trying to debunk Roswell) was  lying when he denied that he did not know the codename (Mogul) used  by military for his work on classified Air Force sponsored balloon-borne radiation detection research. It was an unaccounted for, crashed Mogul balloon train that was proffered as the Air Force’s explanation for the reports of a crashed UFO near Roswell, NM in  July, 1947. The details on this deception are recounted below.

-          And this author has recently discovered passages from a previously ignored interview with Moore conducted twenty five years ago that appears in a little-mentioned Roswell book from the UK. This never-before-discussed interview provides unquestionable proof that Moore knew what the Air Force’s Roswell investigation’s conclusions would be before anyone else.  Moore knew that the Air Force was going to address the issue of strange bodies found at the site in a then yet-to-be published report.  Incredibly, he was made aware of what the Air Force’s explanation would beyears before the public was told of the ”aliens as crash test dummies” explanation and well before any official report on the matter was ever issued.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
MOORE THE COLLUDER                   
                                                        
                                   Charles Moore and Balloon, 1940s

Tim Shawcross is the author of books including Men of Honour and The War Against the Mafia. His has experience in British television as a series editor, director and producer. He has worked for the BBC, Granada Television, Thames Television and UK’s Channel Four on programming including This Week, Secret History and Panorama. His documentaries include Mountbatten and Chernobyl: The Inside Story.

Shawcross indicates that in 1994, while researching the Roswell crash, he had an opportunity to interview Charles Moore at length about subjects including balloons and the crash. Shawcross, wrote in his book The Roswell File something that was very revealing. Completed the year before the release of the second Air Force Roswell study, The Roswell Report: Case Closed ( in which crash test dummies dropped from the skies were said to account  for the ‘alien bodies’ found on the desert floor) Shawcross relates:

I interviewed Charles Moore and asked his reaction to the fact that many people had reported accounts of ‘dead aliens’. (Moore responded) ‘True –people reported…but that I think is another story and something there may be more on later but it nothing to do with what we were flying.’ (Note: the two had earlier been discussing the possibility of the crash being resultant from a secret experimental plane .)  

When I telephoned him from the UK some weeks later and asked whether he could give me any further information on what he meant by that somewhat cryptic remark, he responded by saying that he had been in touch with the Pentagon and that we should expect in 1995 or 1996 another announcement from the Air Force which would contain more details, in the form of an entirely new report. This would finally explain all the accounts of strange bodies at Roswell.

As I continued to press him, Moore became increasingly agitated, saying that he had already said more than he should, and he then ended the conversation rather abruptly. When I telephoned him again, he was even more curt and he seemed  distinctly worried that he had mentioned to me as much as he had.”

Shawcross then notes on page 165) of the book, “no second Air Force report has yet emerged.” Still, Shawcross seemed confident that Moore had foreknowledge that one would be produced. And indeed it was, just as Moore had predicted!

                                                              Aerial Test Dummy

That is to say:

At least three years before the anthropomorphic “crash test dummies” explanation was offered to the public to account for what the Roswell witnesses really saw and misconstrued as alien bodies, Charles Moore had already been apprised by the Pentagon that the body issue would be “dealt with.” It would come out, he said , in an all- new, second Air Force report that would be released in the next two years or so. At the time of the writing and completion of Shawcross’s The Roswell File book, the Air Force had yet to even indicate that they would be putting forth a second report on the crash. Moore knew in 1994 what would only become “known” in 1997!

There is only one reason that Moore would have known years before what the Air Force would tell the public about bodies. He was colluding with the Air Force since the very beginning in creating viable alternate explanations for both the crash materials and bodies. It is strikingly clear from what has been found in Shawcross’ book that Moore maintained high-level contacts at the Pentagon and that he was being kept apprised of the government’s Roswell investigation as it was occurring. It is likely that rather than just having been an interviewee for the Air Force’s inquiry, Moore was  actively collaborating with the Pentagon to develop false explanations and conclusions about the Roswell crash.

In reviewing his interview with Moore some weeks previous, Shawcross felt compelled to contact Moore again about Moore’s enigmatic remarks and prediction of a new Roswell Air Force report. The elderly Moore seemed horrified at himself that he had “slipped up” and had said too much to Shawcross. The implications of what he had related to Shawcross had suddenly dawned on him. And Moore, a man who had previously been very cordial and cooperative, suddenly had become flustered and abrupt with him. He knew that Shawcross’ next questions would invariably have been: “Why is the Pentagon privately keeping you informed about their Roswell work? What is your real role with them and Roswell?”

We must also wonder:  Was Moore receiving direction from the Pentagon as a pawn? Or was he providing advice to them as an expert? Or both? Did Moore hold Top Secret clearance levels that made his utility to the Air Force easier to access? It is likely. As a life-long researcher and Professor in Atmospheric Science and related disciplines, Moore was affiliated with Universities including the Atmospheric Department at New Mexico Tech. A portion of his work throughout his life was sponsored research. This work was sometimes classified and military and government contracted.

MOORE THE LIAR

                                 Charles Moore Pictured with a Mogul Reflector

Over the years various accusations have been levied against Moore by researchers. Among them is that Moore’s Mogul balloon trajectory premise was false or at best disingenuous. But there is something Moore said which can only be construed as a falsehood:

For years Moore had maintained to researchers that he was entirely unaware of the codename used by the military for a balloon radiation detection system to be used over the Soviet Union that he had helped to test and implement. This was Project Mogul. He insisted that it was not until 1992 that he was made aware of the actual name of the project by the late researcher Robert Todd.

However pioneering investigator Brad Sparks proved this untrue some seven years ago. Sparks wrote:

“Moore claims that he never even knew the supersecret "MOGUL" project codename while he himself worked in MOGUL in the late 40's, had no idea there was a MOGUL codename for what he had been doing until Bob Todd contacted him and revealed it to him in 1992 or thereabouts.  Moore uses this bullshit story to support his claim that MOGUL was so compartmented and supersecret in 1947 that that helps explain why it took so long to come up with the MOGUL balloon explanation for Roswell, and how Roswell 509th would know nothing about MOGUL, how other activities at White Sands would have known nothing of MOGUL, etc.

In fact this is just another of Moore's bold-faced lies through his teeth:  Moore had in his own files a May 12, 1949, letter from White Sands PIO and Navy Unit commander, Cdr. Mclaughlin, to Dr. James Van Allen, discussing how CHARLES B. MOORE HAD BEEN IN CHARGE OF "PROJECT MOGUL" there at White Sands.  Moore had this letter in his own files all along and had even shared a copy with McDonald back in 1968!!” (Dr. James McDonald was a Moore associate and atmospheric scientist.)

Here is a link to the incriminating letter, found on researcher David Rudiak’s website:

THE TRUTH ABOUT MOORE

When we combine Moore’s ongoing relationship with the Pentagon about Roswell (and his knowledge years before of a report to deal with the bodies) with his known deceptions, we must now discount entirely his value in having provided any forthright answers to what really happened at Roswell. Moore passed in 2010. Some  say that we should not speak ill of the dead.  But we must speak the truth about them. And the truth is that Charles “CB” Moore knew much more. For the Pentagon to keep Moore abreast of what none of us would learn until years later is telling. The Air Force wanted both a stooge and someone who could actively help to create revisionist history about Roswell. They found both in a man named Moore.                        

AJB 

58 Comments:

  • Tony:

    Yes, this is very interesting. There is, however, one thing I would dispute.

    You say of Moore: "Incredibly, he was made aware of what the Air Force’s explanation would be before the public was told of the ”aliens as crash test dummies” explanation and well before any official report on the matter was ever issued."

    There's no evidence in the public domain that Moore (to quote you) "was made aware of what the Air Force's explanation would be."

    He may well have been told of the plan to release a report on the bodies (and his words to Shawcross certainly do indicate that).

    However, knowing of the planned report is very different to being "made aware" of the specific explanation that would be presented in the report - namely the dummies, as you suggest.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Hi Nick-
    Moore knew of a forthcoming report from the Air Force about the bodies three years before it was released, and that he was in contact with the Pentagon.

    But he also said to Shawcross something more detailed about the report. He told Shawcross that the crash had nothing to do with a secret experimental plane as Shawcross had suggested as a possibility.

    Moore knew what the bodies were not, so he then likely knew what the Air Force would say that they were.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Tony:

    Yes, he may have known. Or, he may have simply have been told a report would be coming out that would discuss the bodies - and that's all he knew.

    Even if he knew of a report (which I think Shawcross' book suggests he did), why is it, as you say, "likely" he knew of the theory that would be reached?

    But, either way, your specific words "...he was made aware of what the Air Force’s explanation would be..." are speculation, unless we can prove he explicitly made mention to anyone, prior to 1997, of the dummy angle of the report.

    He didn't, not even to Shawcross. He just made mention of the likelihood that something might surface on the bodies issue.

    I'm not being petty or splitting hairs here. People may pick up on your words, as I did and may note the same.

    I would have written, "Incredibly, he MAY have been made aware..." not "Incredibly, he WAS made aware..."

    What we know vs what we assume are two different things.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • While I don’t think anything significant happened at Roswell in terms of aliens, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece. These Roswell stories are appealing to me as a continuation of one of my personal stylistic favorite films, film noir. I thought it was wonderfully composed and avoided hyperbole as much that is, than is normally associated with the subject. It also reminds me of the long vanished tradition of serialised novels.
    Your dogged research and knack for taking hits to the chin falls somewhere between quixotic and admirable. My own suspicion is based on research I published some time ago was based on concurrent events regarding a very successful record of the Soviet having gained U.S technology through espionage and as a result this was a counter espionage foil that manipulated the then also concurrent suspicion that aliens were possibly a very real potential threat and their technology was the wet dream of the Cold War. Would make a pretty good film noir in of itself.
    Of course, all of this, no matter what version suits one’s tastes, it is all a collage assembled from bits and pieces.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Nick,

    In tonys defence, moore said that he knew another report about the bodies was coming out.

    An they were known to him that it wasnt an experimental crash involving humans, nor to him are they aliens so they must be dummys

    By Blogger Al12, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • I side with Nick over this.

    Tim Shawcross says that he spoke to Moore in person in 1995 and again by phone a few weeks afterwards.

    Shawcross also says in his book: "Needless to say, no report has emerged [i.e. not at the time of publication of Shawcross' book], but I would place an enormous amount of confidence in Charles Moore telling the truth about a new version of the events surrounding Roswell".

    AJB is implying that the AF investigators were in some kind of cover-up about Roswell, and that Moore was also involved in this cover-up.

    But AJB is obsessed with Roswell cover-ups anyway, so what is new here?

    Far more likely that Moore was told that the AF planned a report about the bodies (as Nick has said) and hinted this to Moore and asked him to keep quiet until this AF report came out, as it did in summer 1997.

    And AJB's use of the word 'incredibly' is simply not justified.

    By Blogger cda, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • CDA is correct...should have said that Moore knew about the bodies report two years before its publication, not three. 1994 is when Shawcross began his research. The more important and central report remains: why was Moore filled in by officials?

    I'll meet Nick half-way. Rather than "was" or "may have" I should have used "likely."

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Yes, "likely" is fine.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Moore is an interesting character who appears to have misled researchers in the past (either through omission or deliberate misinformation)...which leads me to speculate as to whether or not he was misleading Shawcross and just got lucky with the timing.

    The puzzle, to me, would be why the Air Force was still dealing with Moore 40+ years later. If there actually were a UFO crash at Roswell that was kept highly secret I can't see where the 'balloon guy' would be let into the inner circle. My hunch, which I can't prove, is that they reached out to Moore in some small capacity hoping he would be able to fill in any missing details about Mogul, and then Moore exaggerated the importance of that contact.

    And let's not forget Moore had his own UFO sighting in 1949.

    By Blogger Capt Steve, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • There is, too, an entirely innocent reason as to why Moore could have known of the 1997 dummy report a couple of years earlier. And it's this:

    If you read the "Statement of Witness" section (which can be found towards the end, specifically after the report itself), you'll see from the dates that McAndrew (the author of the report) conducted his interviews with people re the dummy angle back in 1995.

    This is something people totally forget (or they simply don't know): it's not like the dummy report came suddenly out of the blue in 1997. It was in the works back in 1995, a full 2 years or more earlier!

    Even the USAF openly acknowledges that, as the McAndrew dates for his interviews (summer 1995) make clear in the report!

    For example, take Raymond Madson (himselfof the crash-dummy project, but who didn't support the theory). He was interviewed back in 1995, specifically for the new report, and 2 years before it was published!

    It's not like Madson was hastily interviewed a month before the report came out.

    So, my point is this: with people like Madson being interviewed by the USAF way back in 1995 (for a report that didn't surface until 1997) it's not out of the question that Moore chatted with some of the new interviewees back in 1995 and learned of the report from THEM, rather than from someone in the Pentagon etc under conspiratorial circumstances.

    Do I think there is a conspiracy surrounding Roswell? Yes, I do, absolutely.

    But do I think that a case can be made that (a) because Moore knew of the report in 1995, this means (b) he was somehow tied to a deeper level? No. Not unless proof is forthcoming.

    If the dummy report was unknown to everyone but the USAF in 1995, then yes, that would be a very different matter.

    But when we can prove that the report was already underway in 1995 (to the extent that members of the public had been interviewed for it in 95), it's not so tough at all to understand that Moore might have heard snippets, given that people like Madson had been interviewed, and given that Moore had played a role in the earlier report.

    Can I prove that scenario? Nope. But I can prove that people were being interviewed for the new report back in 1995, a full 2 years before the report was released? Yes.

    And that might be from who Moore got his data.


    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Nicks interpretation seems reasonable and at the core of this perennial menu of theories superimposed on a outlandish fib is to consider just how weak the supposition is that all those involved could not discern a dummy from alien flesh and what have you.
    One consideration is just how far the dummy explanation goes into ridiculous territory which may indicate the depth of what it seeks to bury although the extraterrestrial bandage to my mind, falls into the same niche of
    innovations on the fact that it is based on what was reported which is highly more likely that it too was a Trojan Horse.
    This is formally called formally an intentional double bind.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • Nick-
    I interviewed Madson (see previous article on this) and he was not told to not say anything about his interview with AF investigators...

    Moore, on the other hand, was beside himself that he had said too much or something that he was not supposed to say to Shawcross. His curt and scared behavior shows that he had let a cat out of a bag that shouldn't have been...

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • First, the balloon photo at the top of Tony's essay is from my website and depicts a Roswell/saucer-debunking weather balloon/radar target demonstration held at Fort Worth Army Air Field on July 10, 1947, less than 2 days after Gen. Ramey had debunked Roswell as a balloon/radar target. The photo was one of three taken by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram at the time (same newspaper who did the Ramey memo and other photos on July 8).

    http://www.roswellproof.com/FWSTJuly11.html

    This was one of several known military balloon/radar target demonstrations carried on in the immediate aftermath of Roswell, all designed to debunk the flying saucers, sometimes mentioning Roswell:

    http://www.roswellproof.com/balloondemos.html

    Back then, the story was Roswell/the saucers were caused by ordinary radar target weather balloons. The only difference between then and the modern AFOSI/Moore version was to try to claim the balloon source was one of Moore's lost Mogul balloons. The problem was, all recorded Mogul balloon flights were fully accounted for, with none possibly ending up on the Foster Ranch. To get around this, Moore and AFOSI clearly colluded to create a nonexistent Mogul balloon launched June 4 (the alleged "Flight #4"), when the only mention of such an attempted balloon flight indicates that it was cancelled because of cloudy weather. Instead they sent up a much smaller "service flight" carrying only a microphone to test reception on the ground and air.

    Likewise, Moore and the AF created two more nonexistent Mogul flights to try to bolster a "Flight #4". These were the unambiguously cancelled Flights #2 and #3 back East. This was yet another of Moore's and the AF's flagrant lies.

    ALL Mogul records and subsequent official histories of flight record Flight #5 from June 5 as the FIRST such Mogul flight in New Mexico. No official records show anything about a "Flight #4" from June 4.

    Because the real Flight #5 passed almost directly over Roswell base and crashed only 16 miles East of the base, Moore engaged in more lying, altering a Mogul flight trajectory for #5 map TWICE to distance #5 from the base, probably to try to back up his claim that Roswell base would have had no knowledge of such Mogul flights. Here's the proof of Moore's deliberate alterations in black and white:

    http://www.roswellproof.com/Flight4and5_changes.html

    Moore also fragrantly lied about this (how close #5 really came to Roswell base) in an email debate with Brad Sparks, mediated by Moore defender Karl Pflock:

    http://www.roswellproof.com/Flight4_Addendums.html#anchor_3600

    At lastly, Moore most certainly did hoax a "Flight #4" trajectory to take it "exactly" (his word) to the Foster Ranch crash site. These weren't innocent mistakes, but very deliberate calculation (or miscalculations) on Moore's part. Explanation in plain English:

    http://www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_hoax_FAQ.html

    All the gory mathematical details (very long):

    http://www.roswellproof.com/Flight4_Trajectory.html

    Moore's connection to the classified government word continued into at least the 1950s, stating that he held a top-secret CIA classification, probably having to do with his spy balloon work in the early 1950s before the U-2 became operational. Spy balloons with cameras were being sent directly over the Soviet Union.

    Believe it or not, I actually respected Moore once, until the evidence of massive lying and deception on his part piled up. Facts is facts.

    Why all the lying and hoaxing about Mogul and Roswell in the present-day? Government collusion and payoff? Old-age self-glorification for supposedly being responsible for and solving the Roswell case? Whatever his reasons, Moore took them to the grave.

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Thursday, May 01, 2014  

  • I like AJB's final sentences in his posting:

    "The Air Force wanted both a stooge and someone who could actively help to create revisionist history about Roswell. They found both in a man named Moore."

    Indeed they did, but maybe the Moore was a certain William L. Moore, who was the first, along with his buddy Stan Friedman, to create a 'revisionist history about Roswell'. Until these two came upon the scene, nobody cared one iota about Roswell, and very few had even heard of it. Further 'revisionist histories' were to follow, too numerous to list here.

    And David Rudiak, Nick Redfern and Tony Bragalia have all added their own 'revisions' to the saga.

    And the list of those witnesses who allegedly knew all about it but took the secret to their grave is endless.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Dave-
    Thanks for your detailed info on Moore. And just as I credited you for the inclusion of the Moore/Mogul letter on your site, I should have realized the first photo in the piece was from your site.

    Nick-
    I fully realize that the AF was researching the bodies before the publication of the report in '97...how else could an investigation be done if not prior to release of its results?

    In my 2009 interview of Madson, he indicated that McAndrew wanted to get all of the historical details from Madson about the dummy drop
    program that he could (details that only Madson could offer) and then make all of this information
    seem to support the Air Force debunking efforts. Madson got an "uneasy" feeling about the whole thing...

    Why would the Madson information be shared with Moore? Was Moore continuing to quietly consult with the Air Force?

    I have McAndrew's email address- I'm going to see if he discussed with Moore the bodies two years before the publications of the report.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • I think researchers have to ask themselves that if this quasi-event was not a crashed classic flying saucer as described in that period and it was not the ridiculous claim of misidentification of a balloon, or not being able to discern the difference between a mannequin and a living being, then what act is being buried? My view is too much attention has been placed on the Air Force rather than the CIA. You have to consider that for intelligence operatives, it is their patriotic and sworn duty to lie.
    The CIA and the Air Force have a long history of collusion regarding both the misdirection of attention by using the so called UFO as a fulcrum of manipulation as well as creating so called “events.” Further in other areas for this reason they long ago infiltrated the so called Ufology social circle for the same reason. Not because they are hiding little green men.
    No one questions that “black box” designation in the federal budget that does not allow for Congressional oversight. That being said, few realize that the CIA has black box operations within itself. Until James Angleton’s counter espionage “safe house” was revealed, no one knew this could be so. The CIA promised to reform itself which was public window dressing as revealed in recent Congressional testimony. Your net is too small and you have been steered in the wrong direction in this pond. Call this inadvertent collusion.
    You have to look at the mechanics and volumes involved as well as the process involved in declassifying the secrets of the CIA. Look at the amount of documents still withheld from WW2.
    You have to look a events outside of Roswell. Congress and the public were obsessed with the fact that the KGB had stolen our atomic weapons technology right under our noses. Also, through the aegis of the Air Force that a foreign or highly advanced technology was present in unidentified atmospheric phenomenon might be a 50/50 possibility. The culture was rife with this “UFO” mystery. The CIA was under enormous pressure to find Soviet agents. I suspect they invented the perfect Venus fly trap with the perfect double bind to create intentional confusion.


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Tony:

    I don't dispute that Madson was asked not to talk about the report.

    But my point was this: it's not necessarily a big issue that Moore knew of the report in 1995.

    The reason being that, as I said, people (such as Madson) were already being interviewed for the report back in 1995.

    And, with people being people, it's not impossible that someone else (as in one of the other interviewees) broke the silence.

    On the other hand, it may have been as simple as this: McAndrew asked Moore if he knew anything about dummy-drops in the area and told him of the new report.

    He told Madson of the report, so why not tell someone who was part of the earlier report, namely Moore?

    The AF may have wanted news of the report kept quiet until 1997, but it hardly contained highly classified material. So in that sense, Moore may have been told and requested not to mention it - as per Madson.

    But, when Moore dropped hint or several to Shawcross, I suspect Moore's worry was not that he had inadvertently blown the whistle on some big secret he knew. I suspect he was simply worried he had broken a promise not to mention/allude to the report until it was published.

    And, as I see it, it's perfectly reasonable for McAndrew to ask Moore about the dummy theory - who worked roughly in that geographical area - and doesn't require any kind of conspiracy to explain things.

    Now, I should stress that doesn't mean Moore wasn't part of a conspiracy. It just means there is an equally plausible, reasonable explanation that doesn't involve a conspiracy for Moore knowing about the report.


    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Bruce

    You should read Bernard Newman's 1948 novel, The Flying Saucer.

    It's all about a secret group that "stages"/fabricates 3 crashed UFO events (one in the UK, one in the USSR and one in...New Mexico).

    There's even a faked alien body (shades of the Alien Autopsy film).

    In the story, the theme is using a bogus ET threat to unite the world.

    Newman was interesting guy with certain, official links.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Nick
    What is interesting is that at the height of the Cold War with Ronald Reagan intentionally inflaming the Soviets while pushing very publicly the innuendo that Star Wars or if you will, a laser guided ICBM defense shield was a strong possibility, the same ruse was once again used.
    At that time the Soviet was crushed with debt and this bluff pushed their overspending.
    Once again the ruse of a advanced technology was justified in psychological warfare.
    You can bet the farm that the CIA was watching the Soviet reaction.
    You dont set a trap without watching it. The same applies to the faux threats distributed around Roswell that are often cited as "evidence" that a saucer did crash. otherwise why threaten the public?
    Appearances in this form of warfare mean everything.
    There was a brief period of time when the KGB files were opened which was a lost opportunity due to folks focused on finding bendable metal etc.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Nick: "In the story, the theme is using a bogus ET threat to unite the world."

    No need to go to fiction for the sentiment. US politicians in 1947 expressed it -- absent a "bogus" statement. There were Republicans, though, who suspected the wave was "bogus", in a way not unlike their belief that the Welles' Wells radio play was "bogus" -- another plot by the White House to build up the US military and to entangle us in foreign wars.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Yes, given the mathematical re: statistical improbabilities that in the hugely enormous amount of land mass, a crashed flying saucer just happened to land near a USAF base charged with nuclear weaponised technology. A ridiculous coincidence.
    Consider the well documented dangers of interstellar flight in regard to radiant energy etc and some would have us believe that static energy in the form of a lightning bolt brought down a interstellar craft in our atmosphere no less. Yes, they were ignorant of lightning.
    Consider the same Mr Reagan going before the UN while putting the aforementioned squeeze on the Soviet directly borrowing Bernard Newman's playbook re" the world uniting against an alien "foe".
    And so it goes...

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Also Consider we primitive beings can read a license plate from space.
    Also consider there are capabilities of the unmanned USAF spaceship now circling the globe for something like 500 days. A race that can venture across thousands of light years requires telemetry beyond this.
    There was and is no need to enter our atmosphere to determine whats going on let alone the interception of communications as demonstrated by NSA satellites.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • "Indeed they did, but maybe the Moore was a certain William L. Moore, who was the first, along with his buddy Stan Friedman, to create a 'revisionist history about Roswell'. Until these two came upon the scene, nobody cared one iota about Roswell, and very few had even heard of it. Further 'revisionist histories' were to follow, too numerous to list here."

    A most excellent point--even lethal to Roswell-conspiracy revisionist histories--made better previously:

    http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2007/04/balloon-switch-in-rameys-office.html?showComment=1180209420000#c3168384545716539053

    And I would add to this my standard observation about all of ufoolery, its inherent undercurrent of conspiracy mongering, and over a century of "UFO" reports as expressions of an ongoing collective delusion: It is all utterly inconsequential.

    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Friday, May 02, 2014  

  • Isn't it interesting that people like cda and ZoamBot uncritically accept a true "revisonist history of Roswell" put out by Charles Moore and a Pentagon Air Force counterintelligence team, namely a cancelled, nonexistent Mogul balloon and wooden crash dummies from the next decade "explained" Roswell.

    The two AFOSI reports on Roswell are skillfully written propaganda by people whose job description is to deceive, a collection of flagrant lies and factual distortions designed to misdirect the public and media and derail a Congressional investigation. (This was the top AFOSI unit, the head guy, Col. Richard Weaver, being in charge of security for Pentagon black projects, or SAPs.)

    Moore was complicit in that effort telling numerous flagrant lies of his own, including falsifying Mogul data and creating an unquestionably hoax balloon trajectory that cda and other skeptics like Tim Printy and Dave Thomas still defend. (The "scientific" skeptics apparently never learned how to read maps and do grade school math, thus in SkeptoWorld, Moore numbers like 100/12.1 = 350 or 852/2.8 = 100 are perfectly OK.)

    So "nothing" happened, but Air Force counterintelligence still found it necessary to deceive the public and media in the present day over "nothing." And Moore, judging by his actions, was their willing shill.

    The skeptical side has more than its share of gullible "UFOols".

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Saturday, May 03, 2014  

  • I could add to this that Moore's/AFOSI's 1994 "Mogul balloon" "explanation" was Revision 2.0 of the original official 1947 Revision 1.0 of the story. As you may recall, Rev. 1.0 came from Gen. Roger Ramey starting only about an hour after the first official version of the Roswell base public press release, which was the base had recovered a "flying disc" or "flying saucer" which the rancher had found "sometime last week". In Revisionist history 1.0, Gen. Ramey changed the "disc" into a singular weather balloon and radar target commonly used by the weather services. The rancher had found it three weeks ago. Ramey denied any sort of equipment was found with it. He displayed a slightly used singular weather balloon (could fit in a shoe box) and a broken singular radar target.

    Part of Rev. 1.0 included some official contradictory statements, such as Ramey claiming the box-kite-like "disc" would have been 25 feet across if reconstructed (instead of the real 4 feet across). (Washington Post and other stories) Intelligence officer Marcel was quoted saying debris was scattered over a square mile. (AP stories) The effort to gather up a singular balloon/target scattered over a square mile in just a few hours of inspection then reassemble it back into mostly intact pieces must have been superhuman!

    In the new Revision 2.0 of AFOSI and Moore, Ramey's singular balloon and radar target exploded into a "giant" Mogul balloon of 2 dozen weather balloons and multiple radar targets. But despite prompting by head AFOSI guy Col. Weaver about the new, improved Mogul theory, their star witness, fellow retired counterintelligence agent Sheridan Cavitt kept to the tiny balloon crash story of 1947. And as for Moore's Mogul "flower tape", Cavitt denied anything like that being found, and stated that tales of "alien hieroglyphics" were instead made up by UFO writers trying to make a buck. Did I mention that nobody can find any of Moore's/AFOSI's "flower tape" in the Ramey photos? AFOSI admitted as much, saying the photos had been sent to some high hush-hush government photoanalysis lab.

    Both Moore and AFOSI insisted it had to be a true, fully-rigged Mogul balloon that crashed with most of its paraphernalia. AFOSI insisted on this to explain various debris descriptions and Moore insisted on it to create his trajectory hoax. What AFOSI swept under the carpet was rancher Brazel's 1947 statement that he found no rigging of any kind, when a true Mogul would have had hundreds of yards of rigging strewn about. AFOSI asked Moore about this in their interview with him, but when Moore couldn't come up with an explanation, they naturally omitted further mention of this vital point in their summary statements released to the press.

    More importantly, there were no unaccounted for Mogul flights, so they simply invented one that was clearly cancelled, then fabricated more lies to support this subterfuge, such as bringing the two previous cancelled Mogul flights back to life. In the real world, all official flight histories list the balloon flight the next day as the first NM flight.

    Another aspect of Revisionist Version 2.0 was AFOSI stating that tales of alien bodies were just that, tales told by liars, hoaxers, and confused old (translation: senile) people.

    Three years later came Revisionist Version 3.0. Turns out the liars, hoaxers, and senile old people may have been partially right after all, but recalling wooden crash test dummies tests that didn't start until years later. Not even the press swallowed that one.

    So "revisionist history" indeed! When people like William Moore and Stanton Friedman came along, their "revisionist history" was actually going back to the original story of the base press release, namely the base had recovered an actual "flying disc" from a nearby ranch found "sometime last week."

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Saturday, May 03, 2014  

  • DR is quite right.

    Revision 4.0 is, I understand, due out soon. This will be the final, true, accurate and completely factual account of what exactly happened on that memorable day in July '47.

    I have it on unimpeachable authority that it is based on the secret that some of those important witnesses took to their graves. These secrets were obtained by spiritualists in seances conducted during the years following the 60th anniversary of the event in 2007.

    These secrets also contain the true story of the strange morphing metal and the Battelle Institute involvement in the cover-up.

    Stay tuned for the great denouement!

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, May 03, 2014  

  • CDA,

    You are again very "confused". I'm speaking, of course, of official GOVERNMENT revisions, which you are deliberately mixing with civilian researcher theories, which have NOT gone through multiple fundamental revisions. The civilian ones remain essentially the same as the original official government story: Roswell base really did recover the "flying disc" of "recent rumor".

    Government Revision version 4.0 may have already come out in the unofficial form of mostly unidentified, self-admitted counterintelligence agents (would they ever lie?) telling Nick Redfern that Roswell was "really" the crash (or was it crashes?) of Japanese Fugo balloons lofting German Horten flying wings with nuclear reactors on board (or various permutations of this) to test the effects of radiation on humans at high altitudes. (If this already sounds like somebody devising a theory that includes everything but the kitchen sink, we are not done yet.)

    They were unwillingly crewed by (take your pick) 1) Captured tiny Japanese POW kamikaze pilots (never mind why "kamikaze" pilots would be alive or still being held POW two years later), 2. Captured "mutant" Chinese prisoners of Japanese Unit 731 doing horrible medical experiments on them (never mind the real history that the Japanese used normal Chinese people and murdered them all before the Russians overran China, begging the questions how did they get "mutated", come back to life, and end up in U.S. hands?), 3) Genetically deformed children suffering from progeria being held at Fort Stanton, N.M.

    It was so godawfully mixed up and BAD that even debunker Karl Pflock couldn't stomach it and aptly retitled Nick's book "BS in the Desert". French Ufologist Gildas Bourdais also took the book to task for its many, many historical inaccuracies (not to mention logical absurdities):

    http://www.ovni.ch/guest/bourdais4.htm

    Revisionist version 5.0 might have been Annie Jacobson's more recent, equally godawful account in her Area 51 book, based on only one unidentified "witness". In this heaping, steaming pile of bull-bleap, Roswell was instead a scheme by Joseph Stalin using captured German death-camp doctor Joseph Mengele (never mind that the Russians never captured Mengele) to manufacture "alien-looking" beings from surgically/genetically altered children (naturally), to create a "War of the Worlds" type scare in the U.S. They were flown to the U.S. thousands of miles utilizing a remote-controlled drone (never mind that this was far beyond any aviation technology Russia had at the time). Tony did a good job of outing the actual source, former EG&G scientist Alfred O’Donnell:

    http://bragalia.blogspot.com/2011/05/area-51-book-exposed-source-for-roswell.html

    And maybe we've been treated to unofficial Revisionist Version 6.0 in the form of retired CIA agent/CIA media liaison Chase Brandon's story of stumbling across official CIA files showing that Roswell really was the crash of an alien craft, or essentially back to Version 0.0 of the base release that they had captured a real flying disc. We've come full circle.

    Every single one of these official/unofficial revisions from government sources is simultaneously true. Just throw the some mud at the wall and see what sticks apparently.

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Saturday, May 03, 2014  

  • Roswell is like one of those free energy machines the fantasists love to say is hiding in a vault somewhere.
    It produces more energy than it has as fuel. It has nothing to do with logic. It is a play on logic.The more versions of logic there are the more fuel there is.
    Problem is you cant drive a car with it, enjoy a hot dog or pay off your credit card balance with this energy.
    It goes into a black hole where it is carried to an alternate universe. Some have vanished into
    it while remaining visible.You can call this paranormal.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, May 03, 2014  

  • Further to my previous message I understand that Edward Snowden, of Wikileaks fame, is to shortly publish the final definitive work on Roswell. He is at present in Moscow (so we are told) but this need not deter him.

    Did I say 'final definitive work'? I meant 'almost final...'. The final one, of course, will come from the Dream Team in due course, but alas no publication date is known for this.

    And now I hand over to you, Mr Zoamchomsky.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    It is simple: was the crash that of ET or not?

    No need for obtuse language and no need to ascribe mystical, psychological or mythological meaning to the event. Either the crash debris and bodies were unearthly or they were not.

    I am guided by historic truth. Roswell was an objective event of which there is disagreement today about its true nature.

    To call those of us who believe that the event was of an ET nature ‘fantasists’ is derogatory.

    Bruce, I thought that you were above name-calling.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Anthony
    I apologize that you mistook a generalization of the entire subject as being directed toward you personally. I did not have you in mind when I wrote it.
    I think how you frame the question in your criticism of me personally (ie: was it ET or not?) is fair enough a reasonable question as long as you consider other possibilities as well and are open to equally reasonable doubts as counter arguments regarding a ET probability. As I said in earlier comments, the probabilities against this possibility are astronomical in my opinion.
    That does not mean or translate to that there was no effort to manipulate the truth.
    If these parties ( USAF) had expertise and play now you see it and now you don't to me that signify's misinformation with an intent.
    Otherwise you have experts who cannot tell their posterior from a hole in the ground, which added to this, the degree of error is preposterous.
    So..I think a wider net is called for.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Anthony
    Also..if you reread my comment I was referring to a free energy device that Greer and others claim is being withheld by a vast conspiracy.
    Again those with an open mind not exclusively devoted to ET theory cannot help but note that those who have held this view have devoted an enormous amount of energy to it being attached to Roswell while having no evidence other than innuendo.
    I suggest that innuendo was intentional. It was a lie told to gather the attention of a foe.
    So in my view supporting this lie by authoritative figures in exclusively examining it in the light of ET has been a successful misdirection of attention as it was originally "designed"

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Bruce-

    Thanks for reminding me of Greer. I should have included him in my piece on the 'seedy side of saucers'!

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    Atre you saying that this free energy device is something that certain ET proponents (such as Greer) claim was brought to earth by the Roswell UFO?

    News to me! This implies that the Roswell UFO itself, together with all its occupants, traversed possibly light years of space without expending any energy.

    Then, at the end of its journey, it crashed to earth. But the USAF still managed to capture its 'free energy device'. Whew!

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • CDA
    In his own words

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mykx2rXTMLQ

    Oh what a tangled web we weave...

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Anthony
    One thing that I had forgotten to convey that just came up is the planting of evidence. This event occurred just after WW2 and the U.S planted phony evidence all over the place in a tactical and strategic psychological game against the Reich. This time one foe was defeated and another cropped up.
    I think it is probable the debris field was planted by an air drop.
    Has anyone looked into this?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Also

    An example of foil like material used in WW2 via air drop. For what its worth.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    As we have discussed on email, I'm not sure I accept that the sheer scale of the debris field could indicate a planting of evidence and a ruse against the Russians.

    However, on that very issue of saucers, foil etc, there is this,
    a 1947 FBI memorandum (surfaced via FOIA):

    "The Director advised on August 14, 1947, that the Los Angeles
    papers were carrying headlines indicating that Soviet espionage
    agents had been instructed to determine the facts relative to
    the flying discs. The article carried a Washington date line and
    indicated that Red espionage agents had been ordered to solve
    the question of the flying discs, the Russians being of the
    opinion that this might be some new form of defense perfected by
    the American military. The article further recalled that during
    the recent war pieces of tin foil had been dropped in the air
    for the purpose of off-setting the value of radar being used by
    the enemy forces and that these aluminum discs might be a new
    development along this line. The Director inquired as to whether
    the Bureau had any such information."

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • PART 1

    David Rudiak states that "Government Revision version 4.0" for Roswell came about from sources "telling Nick Redfern" about the Japanese angle for Roswell.

    This makes it sound very much like my Body Snatchers in the Desert book was the only source of such a theory. Wrong. And Rudiak knows this.

    Regardless of whether people accept the Japanese theory or not, it surfaced long before I was even investigating it!

    Leonard Stringfield published a near-identical account in 1991. It originated with an elderly woman named Marion Erhart (my spelling on her name may be off, I will have to check my files), who I spoke with around 2006, approx a year after Body Snatchers was published. She told the story as early as 1990.

    After Body Snatchers was published, the Australian researcher Keith Basterfield told me he had been given a near-identical account, before my book was published.

    His source was also Australian, but the man's father was in British intelligence and was aware of the "human experiment" story.

    Keith put me in touch with the source and we had an extensive phone chat.

    The family of alleged "bodies" witness Melvin Brown said that MB said the bodies he saw could have "passed for Chinese."

    As for the Fort Stanton story that Rudiak mentions, people interested in this should speak with John A. Price whose "Roswell: A Quest for Truth" book (published 8 years before mine!) includes several Fort Stanton stories of strange-looking people housed there.

    For those who don't know, Fort Stanton was "home" to various Japanese people during WW2 and handicapped people after. Fort Stanton is in Lincoln County, where the crash happened.

    In 1997, Popular Mechanics published a story stating that they had been "told" of a forthcoming release of documents that would explain the Roswell event as a Japanese equivalent of the "Paperclip" operation.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • PART 2:

    When, in August 2012, UFO researcher Kathy Kasten died, her family sent me all her files (huge boxes dating back many years).

    One box exclusively dealt with Roswell and contained numerous documents on Fort Stanton, as well as KK's research into Japan's Unit 731, Fort Stanton, and the Roswell bodies.

    Nothing in this material post-dates the early 1990s, yet what is intriguing is that something had prompted KK to address the Japanese angle all those years ago, and from the correspondence in there, it's clear we're talking about the 1980s onwards, never mind the 1990s or even the 2000s.

    John Keel published a story years ago (early 1990s ion "Fate" magazine) of reported manned balloon flights by Japan, in which 5-foot-tall Japanese pilots (or thereabouts)had been killed or captured in US desert locations after balloon crashes, and which had prompted rumors of "dead little aliens" and crashed UFOs.

    Finally, something I have mentioned before, I have 100s of pages of FOIA files that talk about a number of human deaths in Lincoln County, NM from 1947-49 from plague.

    There is discussion in the files of the suspicion that the plague did not surface naturally. Indeed, the crux of the files/theory is biowarfare ops by the Japanese (Unit 731), via balloon.

    The files on one of the deaths (including a young boy from Lincoln County who fell ill and who was taken to - and died at - Fort Stanton) were CC'd to none other than J. Edgar Hoover, the director of the CIA, the director of the Atomic Energy Commission of the AFOSI.

    If Rudiak wishes to state that "Government Revision version 4.0" for Roswell came about from sources "telling Nick Redfern," he should at least note that the story came from numerous other sources, long before (and after) mine, too.

    His writings over the years clearly note the number of people whose views on Roswell support the ETH. He should, therefore, note the body of data that points in the Japanese direction that also comes from a number of people - not just me.

    Had I not made this comment here, people would think - from Rudiak's words - that the Japanese angle comes from me, and from me alone.

    Of course, multiple sources don't mean the story is true (and that goes for the ET angle, the Mogul balloon angle etc), but it's important to stress that the accounts given to me didn't surface out of the blue for my 2005 book - period. They were around for years before.

    I still believe that's an important issue that should not be overlooked.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • I meant "the director of the Atomic Energy Commission and the AFOSI."

    Not "the director of the Atomic Energy Commission of the AFOSI."

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • The execution by intent of Japaneses prisoners would definitely qualify as a violation of the Geneva Convention or alternatively the use of corpses as fodder would cause an international uproar making any moral stance nil.
    This use would have to be deeply buried..forever.
    Alternatively..
    The size of the field would support an air drop as it is well known that dispersal and accuracy of an air drop to an exact spot is complex.
    Conversely dropping debris over a wide area is easy.
    The location is suspect as the odds of a flying saucer landing at the doorstep of the USAF is incredibly remote. Conversely, the spot is perfect for such a drop planting evidence. It is semi-remote and close by.
    The storm was the perfect opportunity to cover the drop.
    You want a third party to enhance the credibility of the planted evidence. Only until Marcel's kid was placed under hypnosis and I beams appeared that the whole scenario got confused.
    The foil or a similar material was loaded and at the ready as it would be used in strategic bombing to throw off Soviet interception.
    Either way, something other than a flying saucer seems more probable and doable with a definitive purpose in mind. Both involve deliberate deception.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Part 1:

    There's also the following in support of the Japanese angle (copy-pasted from my Body Snatchers book):

    And there is another aspect of the Roswell story that has a link to the Fugo balloons that even many of those that have devoted years to unraveling the complexities of the case have failed to realize or consider the significance of.

    According to the testimony of former Counter-Intelligence Corps operative Lewis “Bill” Rickett, one of those that he worked closely with on an investigation of the crash at Roswell was Dr. Lincoln La Paz of the University of New Mexico.

    That La Paz was the director of the university’s Institute of Meteoritics and was later involved in a study known as Project Twinkle, the purpose of which was to investigate sightings of strange” green fireballs” seen in the New Mexico region and elsewhere in the late 1940s and early 1950s, has led many commentators to assume that this logically infers an other-worldly point of origin for the Roswell wreckage.

    It is a seldom-discussed fact, however, that while it is true that La Paz did undertake work for Project Twinkle and was a renowned expert on meteorites, he was also one of the government’s leading experts on Japan's "Fugo" balloons during the Second World War.

    As evidence of La Paz’s deep connection to the wartime studies of Fugo balloons undertaken by the Government, consider the following press release titled "New Mexican Had Lookout Job For Japanese Germs" and issued by the University of New Mexico shortly after the close of hostilities in 1945:

    "Dr. Lincoln La Paz of the University of New Mexico was in the thick of the fight against Japanese plans to send disease germs into America by balloon, said President J.P Wernette of the University today. Commenting on stories from the Navy in Washington revealing that use of germs and viruses in the Jap balloon-barrage was an enemy project as the war came to an end, Dr. Wernette said that Dr. La Paz, head of the department of mathematics and the University’s Institute of Meteoritics, was with the government’s secret anti-balloon project during the war.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • PART 2:

    "‘If the war had not ended when it did, in the opening stages of a full-scale balloon offensive which probably would have taken place between October 1945, and now, when the velocity of the west wind at high altitude is greatest, this country would have had unpleasant experiences,’ Dr. La Paz said today. ‘People most concerned were trained scientists, and stockmen, too, he said. Anthrax spores could have been sent over in the paper balloons in great numbers, and Manchurian sheep pox could have easily struck the hooved animals of this country because the disease has not been found here and there would be no natural immunity, Dr. La Paz went on.

    "‘But the Japanese, using radio devices to locate their balloons on the flight to this country, apparently did not realize that we could pick up the signals an find the balloons before they reached the mainland,’ said Dr. La Paz."

    A similar press release issued by the University of New Mexico – also in late 1945 – describes further data on La Paz and his research into Fugo balloons and meteorites:

    "Observers, watching for meteors, thought they had something when they saw some brilliant lights in the sky from February to May, 1945. And they did, said Dr. Lincoln La Paz, mathematics department head at the University of New Mexico and director of its Institute of Meteoritics, today.

    "The displays were actually made by Japanese balloons, Dr. La Paz said, revealing the history of a scientific study of meteors which went on before and during the time that Dr. La Paz was busy in secret government work of studying and combating the balloon offensive.

    "Nevertheless, a few months later, on Nov. 29, 1945, a great meteorite fell slowly across northern California and Nevada, and observers mistook it for everything from a jet plane to a Hollywood publicity stunt. Members of the Society for Research on Meteorites and the American Meteor Society, thought at first that it was a new type [of] Japanese balloon bomb."

    If, as the sources I interviewed asserted, the key event that led to the legend of the UFO crash at Roswell involved a “next-generation of Fugo” balloon that was responsible for launching an experimental aircraft that catastrophically crashed, then who better to enlist into the study of how and why the experiment failed than an expert on those very same balloons?

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • At the end of the day, however, there is one important thing to note: Roswell will never be resolved or proved as "this or that" unless the official files on the case are declassified - and that won't ever happen, assuming they still exist.

    Plus, the UFO research community (for the most part) will never accept any answer for Roswell except the extraterrestrial one.

    So, in that sense, nothing I say, the Air Force says, or anyone says will satisfy the community unless it involves alien bodies and a craft from another world.

    Even the Bernerd Ray images will prove nothing without something beyond just the imagery itself.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Nick:

    "According to the testimony of former Counter-Intelligence Corps operative Lewis “Bill” Rickett, one of those that he worked closely with on an investigation of the crash at Roswell was Dr. Lincoln La Paz of the University of New Mexico"

    Rickett also wrote a report (or assisted with such) on the said incident. However, this report is dated early 1949 and it is obvious from it that neither Rickett or La Paz was ever at Roswell in summer of 1947, or at least there is no documentation to support this. The said report is to do with a specific green fireball episode that also took place near Roswell on Jan 31, 1949. i.e. 18 months later. No debris was found.

    Rickett had simply got confused 35 years after the event and assumed the event he was assisting La Paz on was the Roswell 'flying disc' affair of '47.

    Perhaps the interviewers (two separate sets) had misled Rickett with their questioning.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Nick
    I could understand that the Axis Allies had no cross Atlantic weapon delivery system for biological warfare. Not having read your book and for others who haven't had the opportunity, how does this fit into the postwar era of 1947?
    I am confused by several parallel lines of investigation which seem to indicate..what exactly?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Nick
    Also
    If this was a experimental intercontinental weapons delivery system, on the surface it doesn't make much sense in the light of the already existing B-29 which easily had the capacity to deliver the same payload already with much more precision than a balloon even a radio controlled balloon.
    What am I missing?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, May 04, 2014  

  • Hey Bruce

    I haven't seen any evidence of any kind of balloon attack on the US in 1947 at all.

    The plague documents I refer to suggest the plague may have been deliberately spread in 1945 (specifically the final stages of the war) by Japan and began to affect the human population in the summer of 1947, when someone was bitten by an infected rat in Lincoln County.

    The files reference the speculation/theory of a Japanese balloon delivering the plague via infected rats (and also fleas) that when the balloon landed/crashed to earth would be released.

    The files also speculate that such a balloon landing/crash may have gone unnoticed in 1945, due to the sheer, vast open land that was fairly remote and not widely inhabited.

    It's interesting that the speculation is that such a balloon came down in none other Lincoln County, hence the reason for the outbreak of plague there - which was monitored closely by AEC, CIA, FBI and AFOSI.

    I think it's impossible to believe that the wreckage found on the Foster Ranch, Lincoln County in 1947 was the same balloon as that which the files speculate may have come down in 1945.

    But, the fact is that we do now have a Lincoln County link to Japanese balloons, and which surfaced in documents released several years after my Body Snatchers book was published.

    Did the possible discovery of this plague balloon in 1945 Lincoln County prompt further Japanese balloon-based research at sensitive sites/installations in New Mexico 1947?

    Maybe, as the files also talk about a suspected outbreak of the very same plague at the Sandia base. The Sandia story is a very weird one, which runs to around 60 pages.

    The story I got from the people I interviewed was that the 1947 era things were secret, domestic flights using advanced balloon technology that the Japanese were developing in the latter stages of the war.

    So, we would be talking about a Japanese equivalent of the Paperclip scientists with the Nazi scientists.

    Where it gets confusing, though, is that there is another part of the story, which appears to relate to manned flights to the US by the Japanese in 1945 - never officially acknowledged by either side - that failed and the balloons, gondolas and dead crews were recovered under great secrecy by the US, which is how they supposedly learned of the existence of these huge, new balloons in the first place.

    So, it's kind of like 2 very different (but connected) issues unified into one.

    We're clearly only seeing (so far) part of the picture. But, in all this, somewhere there is a Lincoln County/Japan link.

    Here are a couple of articles I wrote on the allegations of WW2-era Japanese flights to the US (which, by the way, had nothing to do with the original, fairly flimsy Fugo balloons; this was an entirely new program):

    http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2013/05/john-keels-screaming-monkey/

    http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2013/12/did-japan-invade-roswell/



    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 05, 2014  

  • It falls into line with the kind of desperation they had in mind with suicide torpedoes,planes etc.
    My father was on his way to Japan when the bomb dropped and the word was and history vindicated the rumor that the civilians were armed with whatever they could find..a civilian army of volunteers. So, as a context this is not beyond the pale to my mind. Further, if word was out this suicide ploy was over the heads of U.S citizens,the panic that would ensue and confusion would make War of The World's a mild dress rehearsal. Whether it was an act of desperation of Japan's war lords or U.S spies against Soviet spies, all I can say is that I suspect you and I are a lot closer to reality versus a crashed "flying saucer"..with all due deference to those who bought the original story line as an example of "plausible denial"
    It strikes me as the opposite, the denial set the hook back then and the bait was possession of a better club to beat the other guy into submission. lets see if he comes around to steal our club.
    Call it Occams Razor or another example of human weakness.
    I suspect we will never know one way or the other.
    These or other alternative scenarios may or may not prompt further thinking about what this represents. Either way, I am not losing any sleep over it.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, May 05, 2014  

  • None of this matters though, for the following reason:

    Ufology will continue to forever deny any theory except for the ET one for Roswell, right up until the day it takes its last, miserable, struggling breath and fucking chokes on its own vomit and blood-drenched saliva.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 05, 2014  

  • Nick: "The plague documents I refer to suggest the plague may have been deliberately spread in 1945 (specifically the final stages of the war) by Japan and began to affect the human population in the summer of 1947, when someone was bitten by an infected rat in Lincoln County."

    Just want to point out that in 1945, the Carrizozo, Corona part of Lincoln County was on a direct path for radiation from Trinity. There is a lot more to be said about what happened then and there.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Monday, May 05, 2014  

  • Nick
    I would say that our comments are post editorial as this death already happened despite appearances.
    I think thats the definition of how a zombie manifestation appears to represent an example of will power.
    The search for a crashed saucer in Roswell reminds me of Mark Twain's comment; "All I know is what I read in the newspaper."

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, May 05, 2014  

  • I really, really enjoyed Nick's Cinco de Mayo missive.

    Ad hominem attacks on a dead man. Classy as usual, Dream Team.

    By Blogger Sapient, at Wednesday, May 07, 2014  

  • Nick, I'm very interested in the plague story. My first reaction was it seemed a possible cover story for radiation effects from Trinity. If you want to research it, begin with the Tularosa Downwinders.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Hey Don
    I think it probably wasn't a cover, as the files are pretty extensive, particularly the ones on the dead boy, in terms of describing where and when he got bitten, the effects, and then an autopsy confirming plague. But it was how, exactly, the plague began that interested and worried the Intel world.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • The gross physical effects of plague would be obvious on a body. A plague balloon would be full of infected fleas? I'm trying to work out the process of the plague getting from A to Z.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Don, If you google Japanese balloons + WW2 + fleas + rats, you'll find some interesting links

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

Post a Comment

<< Home