The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Thursday, May 08, 2014

Roswell, Lincoln LaPaz, and Green Fireballs

The LIFE magazine article, Have We Visitors From Space? [1952] had this (according to Wikipedia):

The article also described LaPaz's UFO sighting near Roswell, New Mexico, on July 10, 1947, about the same time as the famous Roswell UFO incident. LaPaz, however, remained anonymous. Also described was a 1949 UFO sighting by astronomer Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of Pluto (Life magazine article).

That LaPaz UFO sighting wasn’t of a green fireball, but an unidentified thing in the sky.

However, almost two years later we have this [Wikipedia is the source]:

On January 30 the brightest and most widely seen green fireball sighting occurred near Roswell, New Mexico. The next day, the FBI was informed by Army and Air Force intelligence that flying saucers and the fireballs were classified top secret. LaPaz interviewed hundreds of witnesses, with help from the FBI and military intelligence, and again tried to recover fragments by triangulating a trajectory, but was again unsuccessful.

Again, I conjecture – was the Green Fireball epidemic of 1949 (and subsequent years into the early 1950s) part of a reconnaissance of the New Mexico area whose purpose was to locate a downed flying disk (and its crew – an evolved living, mobile, intelligent plant crew?) – the Roswell incident?

The farfetchery of my “thesis” can be easily dismissed, but what if we could reverse-calculate, using a speed-of-light constant, to locate a possible area of space from which such a spate of probes might originate?

(Either the probes came from outer space or another dimension or parallel universe, the non-space venues making the matter problematical of course.)

I think it was Don, making a comment at Kevin Randle’s blog, that it seems unlikely a space-traveling culture or civilization would be unfamiliar with lightning, the atmospheric phenomenon thought to have brought down the Roswell “saucer.”

But that’s a specious observation. Another planet (or moon) may not have lightning such as that which occurs on Earth. A dry, unstormy planet would be devoid of weather such as we experience here on Earth, thus precluding any knowledge of such a phenomenon as lightning.

Visitors from such an unweathering planet would have no way of countering the vicissitudes of Earth’s weather and could have experienced a disaster such as is predicated by Roswellians.

Our friend Bruce Duensing thinks that the Green Fireballs were an atmospheric phenomenon and elaborately supported his view with commentary.

But if that were the case, why has there been no plentitude recurring of such sightings?

Yes, Anthony Bragalia and the internet provide other Green Meteor or Fireball sightings, extant or relatively current, but those sightings have nowhere the number that occurred for the short period of 1949-1952 (or so).

The Green Fireball events, that consumed astronomer LaPaz and the United States military were unique, and connected to the Roswell incident, perhaps, or something else, one might argue, pertinent to the period, such as the Atomic testings of the time, although no fireballs were prevalent for the atomic testings of the late 950s or those in the South Pacific regions where testings took place.

No, the Green Fireball sightings are connected to Roswell, and the “incident” that happened there in July 1947.

That the fireballs appeared in 1949 and for a while after that provide clues to the whereabouts of the flying saucer/UFO source: Titan, Europa, Callisto, Ganymede, or some farther flung planet in the galaxy?

(The two year time lag obviates a need to look too far away in the Galaxy. The source is closer than one might think.)

RR 

34 Comments:

  • Methinks you are trying to be provocative. What are you saying (with tongue in cheek)?

    That after the ETs unexpectedly crashed their craft at Roswell, they successfully reconnoitred the whole area 2 years later and so clever were they that they appeared in the sky many times but never once left any trace of their existence.

    Obviously their engineering and technology abilities improved vastly in those two years!

    Boy, those existing Roswell fragments are now more valuable than ever. Why hasn't anyone contacted Walt Whitmore's family about them? (It was he who stored them in a safe in his house, if you remember).

    By Blogger cda, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • They did not go away as you suggest. No mystery in that because there is no absence of them.

    Latest green fireball reports:

    1/18/2014 United Kingdom and Holland
    2/1/2014 United Kingdom
    2/28 /2014 Throughout U.S East Coast

    If fireballs are vehicles, we have quite a few. Here are pending cases:

    http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball_report/?report_status=pending

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • CDA:

    The Whitmore discussion (at Kevin Randle's blog) is interesting and raises the question you pose (there): Why hasn't this exotic debris surfaced, after all thse years?

    The Roswell investigations team (the former Dream Team) was said to be privy to debris in the hands of Dee Proctor's kin but that rumor has quietly disappeared along with the alleged Roswell slides.

    If there is some Earth-shattering [sic] stuff available, why does it remain hidden, by private folks?

    (That's almost as bad as the supposed government cover-ups.)

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    I didn't say they went away. I said they haven't reappeared in the amount that was reported in the 1949-1953 period.

    Also, the sightings you note are outside the area in question.

    Why? Have the atmospheric anomalies moved from the American Southwest to the UK or East Coast of the States?

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • For comparison: 2013 Green Fireballs

    2/24/2013- California
    5/19/2013 Arizona
    5/28/2013-Ohio
    12/4/2013 -UK ( turned from yellow to green)

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • My take on this is that atmospheric conditions are subject to change and, at times, the continual bombardment of our atmosphere is more readily visible than at other times.
    Also , Cold War paranoia was partially and largely to blame.
    I am not saying that all are explainable or even observed.
    That being said I see no evidence that they were other than natural phenomenon other than the fallible opinions of those who said they were at the time.
    Also recall that was a guess not a fact.
    As far as I can tell the jury is still out.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Yes, Bruce...

    Like all things UFO or Roswell, the jury is surely still out.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • On the other hand, what of other locations that had reports of more pronounced characteristics that were also green? My own ambiguity says that the converse could be true, that a green anomaly in the atmosphere is not necessarily a fireball of natural origin simply because it's green although more probable. Never say never.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Well, one of my favorite reference works, despite some aggrieved criticism of it, is Aubeck and Vallee's Wonders in the Sky, and there are no (as far as my cursory re-look this morning showed) sightings of Green Fireballs in the litany of sightings from ancient times to today.

    Lots of black, red, and white (or metallic) sightings but no (or few) green UFOs.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • While I do think that cultural anticipations in terms of a coherence of consensus plays a role in what is sent back as a feedback, I can't say there was a color bias back then.
    Many bemoan globular shapes like plasmas have taken the place of more identifiable forms as seen in the past, but this is not necessarily true either.

    The phenomenon ( UAP ) is alive and well despite a lack of consensus found in opinions
    It just prefers South America these days in more classic projections.

    Another sighting ( night sighting ) more pronounced happened in Santiago Chile in that following December in relation to the one below it.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Rich

    The roswell ivestigations team was rumoured to be in possesion of exotic material via dee proctor kin?

    Well thats the first ive ever heard of that rumour, everyone has heard of the slides now, but this is the first youve mentioned material, correct me if am wrong though.

    By Blogger Al12, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Not in possession of AI12 but access to ...

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Rich: "I think it was Don, making a comment at Kevin Randle’s blog, that it seems unlikely a space-traveling culture or civilization would be unfamiliar with lightning, the atmospheric phenomenon thought to have brought down the Roswell “saucer.”"

    Not this Don. Must have been another Don.

    Are the later or other green fireballs the same phenomenon as those of the late 40s, early 50s? Or are they just greenish meteorites?
    Have the later fireballs impact sites been found or are they as fugitive as the classic ones?

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Sorry, Don...

    I thought it was you.

    I'd hate to hafta go back and read all the (crazy) comments to see who indicated an alien species would surely be aware of and able to handle Earth's lightning storms.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • "No, the Green Fireball sightings are connected to Roswell, and the “incident” that happened there in July 1947"

    Are the "two years" necessary? The Army and La Paz were together interested in meteorites and fireballs in the autumn of 1947. Because of a key similarity between the green fireballs and the 1946 ghost rockets (they left no trace, at least that could be found), it seems likely the phenomenon existed earlier.

    Because it is pointless to post it elsewhere, a 1949 fireball sighted over Capitan was "telephonically" reported to AFOSI Special Agent Ryan by the Lincoln County Sheriffs Office.

    I wish I had the Lincoln County Sheriffs rolodex from the 1940s.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, May 08, 2014  

  • Hi, RRRGroup, it just occurred to me, what difference could it make, reported sightings of green fireballs/UFOs in other areas or other countries, when it comes to your theory regarding possible searching by alien creatures of supposedly crashed craft that their own comrades may have gone down in.
    Like Kevin Randle's 'A History of UFO Crashes' and Nick Redfern's 'Cosmic Crashes' show clearly, reports of UFO crashes are an international fact. From reading your post, it seems that you may just as easily accept that green reconnoitered vehicles may easily be thought to be looking for the 'Cosford Crash' or 'Bala incident' lost craft in the UK. Have they been reported in a country that is the source of absolutely no UFO Crash reports?
    A good point that Nick made in 'Cosmic Crashes' was this (as best as my memory may recall it):
    Could the technology possessed by visiting alien spacecraft possibly be so good, so well controlled, that it is completely beyond the chances of malfunction or pilot error?
    If specifically designed craft are searching for former visiting craft that had an accident of some kind, may we not accept that they will be noticed on just about every continent on this planet?

    Just some thoughts of mine.

    All the best, folks.

    Woody.

    By Blogger Woody, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich

    access to?

    Why hasnt this been mentioned before? because if true its important

    What do you think?

    By Blogger Al12, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Who would mention it AI12?

    The Roswell Team is operating just like a governmental cover-up group.

    Those guys want to create their own Roswell tale.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich

    if they have access to material debris then its important an should really be known, which is am guessing why youve mentioned it.

    If it was me i would let something be known yes, just like you have here on yiur blog, what am trying to say is how come you havent mentioned this before or have you only just found this out?

    By Blogger Al12, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • AI12:

    I've hinted at it in previous posts and comments.

    I only mention it now to offset some stupid conjectures at Kevin Randle's blog.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich

    Sorry i guess ive missed those hints then because this is the first ive heard.

    do you think thers anything to it? Obvoisly ther is to the slides as thats all out now.

    By Blogger Al12, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • AI12:

    If you're following the discussion at Randle's blog and comments by CDA there (and here), you'd see how ludicrous the debris angle is.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich: "The Roswell Team is operating just like a governmental cover-up group."

    Keyhoe-style ufology has been more like boys playing Project Saucer, without the staff or the budget, yet employing the USAF's defintions, categories, and methodologies.

    Myself, not being a bloated bureaucracy, can see no reason to follow its lead, and even less to follow the lead of the "boys". Some of them express a real disinclination to regard the actually existing world the incidents occur in, which the rest of us call "context".

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Don:

    You are spot on.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich

    yeah ive been following Kevins, an with regarding debris like you ssy its all rumours, but i was unaware the roswell team was involved with any.

    However i agree with you an cda that if someone has access to debris then bring it out an let the world know, thers got to be someone who has a piece of it somewhere.



    By Blogger Al12, at Friday, May 09, 2014  

  • Rich: "If there is some Earth-shattering [sic] stuff available, why does it remain hidden, by private folks?"

    Perhaps the skeptics would make a list of all the stuff. It would mean reading all the books, I guess, and that is no joy. I read one book each of the various Roswell 'schools', so I understand how heroic the skeptics would have to be to do this. There was something about a piece of "slag" in one of them.

    Can anyone offer a reason for reading any of the Roswell books written after the Roswell Incident?

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • Don:

    One reason people would read the Roswell books written after the Roswell Incident is that nobody would read anything written before the said incident.

    There are several references to actual Roswell physical hardware in the various books, articles, recordings with witnesses and such. Not a single one of them has led anywhere and every piece of such debris (hardware) that has been produced has turned out to be worthless junk.

    But maybe our ET visitors prefer to construct their ET craft out of such junk. It is cheaper that way!

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • CDA, I have been unclear. I mean is there anything worthwhile knowing about Roswell, in the books after B/M's book, that isn't in The Roswell Incident? They interviewed some of the principals (named in the news stories); they located (Haut, Marcel) and some second hand accounts (Bill Brazel). A lot of the rest of the book is filler, boilerplate, that identifies the book as Olde Skool ufo writing, but transistional as well.

    Is it possible to have a uptodate, contemporary discussion of Roswell with nothing more than B&M and the newspapers? Are the later books unnecessary...except to those who think Anderson, Ragsdale, Kaufman, Dennis, Corso et al, are relevant (of course, they would be relevant in a discussion of the history of Roswell ufology)?

    What datapoints in the later books add to our certain knowledge about the "incident"?

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • Don:

    You want to get back to the pristine account/reports/story.

    That makes much sense.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • Rich: "You want to get back to the pristine account/reports/story."

    I want to see the process at work, so, how it all began is important.

    I am not looking at what happened "3 days ago", "yesterday", "some time last week", or "three weeks ago", because I am not looking for a space ship crash or space aliens. That is what the Roswell writers do. For me, the Roswell story begins at 12 noon on July 8, 1947 (when the above are first referred to), and not before. That other stuff is history then. In the past. There are no available records.

    There are two ways to approach that problem. One is what Roswell writers do: interview people. Unfortunately (for us), they lead with their chins. If you make it known you are looking for crashed saucers and dead aliens, then you will encounter all the Ragsdales and Andersons you can put up with.

    My way is to approximate what was base-normal behavior for the time and place and see if there are any divergences from it. Then take a looksee at them. This requires reading in history, local, military, political, and having some sort of understanding of methodology from at least one any number of disciplines: sociology, for example, cultural anthropology, another. There are more.

    Knowing lots of crashed saucer stories is no grounds for claiming expertise. Neither is interviewing dozens of "witnesses", in the absence of an analysis attached, and with few citations above the level of "Phone convesation, 1993", is worth anything at all.

    Oh yeah, I don't have a PhD. I have never interviewed a Roswell "witness", and I have never visited Roswell.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • Hahahaha, Don...

    Your journalistic approach sits well with me.

    Yes, I understand your approach and applaud it.

    It's what historians do, real historians.

    I plan on a posting about that, using The Philosophy of History in Our Time by Hans Meyerhoff [Doubleday Anchor, Garden City, NY, 1959].

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 10, 2014  

  • “Reason is often a poor guide to the deeply hidden, irrational strata from which many of the richest manifestations of human life draw their meaning and sustenance” Meyerhoff

    Looking forward to it, Rich.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Sunday, May 11, 2014  

  • Re Meyerhoff, I've been looking for some articles from last month that I thought may be relevant to Meyerhoff. Finally located them.

    There was a dispute between Jeff Kripal (writing in The Chronicles of Higher Education) and Jerry Coyne (writing in The New Republic) that I think might interest you.

    I first read about it on David Halperin's ufo blog.

    You may have read them already, but if not:

    Links:

    http://www.davidhalperin.net/blog/

    An Initiatory Journey – Jeffrey Kripal’s “Comparing Religions” (Part 2)
    April 25, 2014

    ***

    http://chronicle.com/article/Embrace-the-Unexplained/145557/

    March 31, 2014
    Visions of the Impossible
    How ‘fantastic’ stories unlock the nature of consciousness

    ***

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117244/jeffrey-kripals-anti-materialist-argument-promotes-esp

    Science is Being Bashed by Academics Who Should Know Better

    ***

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Sunday, May 11, 2014  

  • Thanks for the links, Don.

    Will definitely pursue.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, May 11, 2014  

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