posted by RRRGroup at
Friday, December 13, 2013
Roswell again??It is time we had a new word in the vocabulary, and dictionary. Its definition would be:"an obsession with the Roswell crashed saucer incident of 1947".Please, someone, invent a suitable word for this.We have had 'pelicanism' and 'pelicanist' from Jerry Clark for someone who is, in Clark's opinion, an unthinking or unreasonable skeptic. Apologies, RR, for the diversion, again.
By cda, at Friday, December 13, 2013
PS.I have just read Nick's latest piece. Nothing new under the sun. We have had all this 'Japanese connection' stuff years ago. It is getting as tiresome as the ET connection.If Nick looks long enough and hard enough he will indeed find some vague Japanese link with Roswell. Here is one (but not new): The 'hieroglyphics' found on the debris. Japanese writing maybe? Keep at it, Nick!
CDA: You say: "We have had all this 'Japanese connection' stuff years ago."Yes, we have and from many sources, such as Popular Mechanics, Keith Basterfield, Keel, the Melvin Brown story, the Lincoln LaPaz link to Japanese balloons, deaths from plague in Lincoln County itself in the late 40s suspected of a Japanese Unit 731 connection even! (I have the FOIA files on that), and the list goes on. And that's what keeps me interested: namely, that there ARE so many Japanese threads.
By Nick Redfern, at Friday, December 13, 2013
I would say that the possibility of any Japanese attaching themselves to balloons to evade war crimes trials is nil. The war crimes tribunals that took place largely focused on the Chinese occupation one year earlier. The Japanese characters on any craft would have been immediately recognizable as well as any basic forensics via dissection would have been simple enough to accomplish. The same would apply to clothing, etc by matching. I am unaware if the Japanese had developed any exotic material especially in the dire straights they found themselves in especially in light of severe material sources, etc. The closest they came to exotica in terms of weapons was sent by a German U-boat that was sunk before reaching port. I don't see this as a viable scenario. Frankly its ridiculous.
By Bruce Duensing, at Friday, December 13, 2013
Bruce:Except for the fact that official files (FOIA) talk about concerns (in March 1945) that the Japanese were planning on building much bigger, and far more sturdy, balloons than the flimsy Fugo Balloons and that they would be manned. Of course, that didn't happen as the atomic bomb intervened and thankfully ended Japan's plans. Did some hidden Japanese cabal almost succeed in delivering something lethal in 47, to the home of the 509th (who bombed Japan). As I said, in an earlier comment, I now have official files from the late 1940s showing that when a number of deaths occurred in Lincoln County, NM (where the crash occurred), there was talk of it being due to plague, possibly resulting from the work of Japan's Unit 731. That such a suggestion was made, makes me wonder if the person knew more than the files reflect. Also all of these files on the Lincoln County plague deaths were forwarded to the director of the CIA, the Atomic Energy Commission, and the FBI. So, it's things like this that still keep me pondering on some sort of Japanese link.
In 1947 Japan was in the midst of a constitutional convention and the some 54 war criminals received nominal sentences and the death sentences as they were, were reversed. There was no impetus for the risks of attaching oneself to balloon and hope you land in the continental U.S,let alone survive the varieties of unpredictable altitude and temperature challenges that would require sophisticated systems to surmount, let alone navigation. Consider that the first Trans-Pacific balloon crossing by a human being was not feasible until 1981. The means and motive are missing from your portrait of a possibility.
I think my first attempt to reply to this lone failed to send, so here's the gist of it: I have FOIA files showing that in 1945 officialdom was concerned that the Japanese were planning on building very large balloons that would be manned, that could reach the US, and that would release lethal biowarfare agents, developed by the likes of Unit 731. I have additional FOIA files on deaths in Lincoln County (and in fact only mere miles from the Foster Ranch), where some in officialdom were speculating it was down to Unit 731. At the very least, I think this is an area worthy of research. That was my point.
The only indication of a significant achievement in manned baloon flight prior to 1947 was in 1935 by the USAF for roughly eight hours and only covered a little over two hundred miles.This is far from the some 6,000 to 7, 000 miles between Japan and the continental U.S. Add elapsed time to this. Concerns during war time regarding possibilities of enemy plans and the technical capability to carry them out are two different things.
...so now Refern is 'co-opting the work of Jan Aldrich and others from OVER one decade ago? :http://ufoupdateslist.com/2001/mar/m01-013.shtml
By Kurt Peters, at Friday, December 13, 2013
a little more:http://www.project1947.com/gfb/fugo.htmhttp://mysteriousuniverse.org/tag/fugo-balloon/http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/May-June-08/On-this-Day--Japanese-WWII--Balloon-Bomb--Kills-Six-in-Oregon.htmlhttp://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/blog/fugo-story-hits-close-to-home/...yet Refern takes the prize,huh?
Nick:These deaths in Lincoln County, NM, please elaborate:1. When did they occur (approximate dates)?2. How many were there?3. Were they in any way suspicious?4. Were any established as being due to the plague (as opposed to there being talk about a possible connection)?Also, has the US had any post-WW2 instances of the plague (say 1945-50), and if so where?
Personally, I did not intend for my comments to be construed as a personal criticism which it sounds that's where Kurt is going. Rather,in any project that would have allowed this to happen must have gone through a developmental and experimental period. It didn't pop out of nowhere. So is there evidence of this going on in Japan?The other problem I have is that any invader using a balloon would have taken the additional risk of standing out like a sore thumb, and again if this was to evade war crimes punishment, it was nearly 100% directed at only 54 individuals who were mainly involved with atrocities against the Chinese people and that took place in 1946..I am just not seeing any of this as faintly plausible.
I'm not co-opting the work of anyone. I am making comments on my own research into official files on (a) fears that Japan was planning on sending manned balloon missions to the US, with a biowarfare component; and (b) I am making comments on my own research into 1940s plague outbreaks in Lincoln County suspected of having a Unit 731 connection! Does Aldrich mention the same files as I have? Nope. they weren't declassified until just a couple of years ago. nice try though, KP.
CDAHistorically New Mexico, California and Colorado are the hot beds of plague as nearly everyone of them occurred in that area, so it's not too surprising. They continue to this day.http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/article_f32e5799-2ddc-56f6-9915-ac30aa00962f.html
CDA: I have pasted your questions below, and then answered them.1. When did they occur (approximate dates)?2. How many were there?3. Were they in any way suspicious?4. Were any established as being due to the plague (as opposed to there being talk about a possible connection)?ANSWERS:1. August 1947 to January 1949.2. Seven altogether, 4 in Lincoln County, the others in Chaves County. Three were children.3. Yes, very suspicious. As I noted, the files were all shared with CIA, FBI and the Atomic Energy Commission. Interestingly, one of the young boys who died was taken to Fort Stanton (in Lincoln County) where Japanese people were held during the War.4. Yes, it was plague. No theory or a possibility. It was plague. The files go into gruesome detail about the deaths at Fort Stanton. The files also talk about someone unknown suspected of trying to release plague on Kirtland Air Force Base. I'll dig out the files in the next few days and scan a few pages and post them.
Bruce:Yes, but you are missing my point: in the files, the discussion is that the eruption of the plague in Lincoln County was highly suspicious and for reasons we don't know they were talking about a Unit 731 connection - and it's all this that was shared with AEC, CIA etc. This was not seen as a natural outbreak, nor was the activity at Kirtland where plague surfaced briefly.
I agree but that there was some suspicion involving agencies in of itself investigating the insertion of plague in an area already established by record as being in a triangle of plague in the context of the Cold War, not WW2 seems more plausible. In that time period there was rampant paranoia involving Soviet agents having infiltrated everywhere because they had. I wold need more specifics but I am not seeing a connection to evasion of war crimes or a invasion of Japanese as thats where you were going.
Nick:Thanks for the answers. All news to me, but then I have never investigated things like episodes of the plague. Still seems a hell of a long way from that to sticks, tinfoil & rubber on a remote ranch.
CDA: Very true, it IS a long way. But that there ARE more than a few Japanese threads to the Roswell story is what keeps me interested. I certainly don't state that it IS the answer, as that would make me belief-driven, which is a mindset I hate. But, with such threads being present, I think it's worthy of careful investigations - and that's pretty much about it.
When you state:“…I now have official files from the late 1940s showing that when a number of deaths occurred in Lincoln County, NM (where the crash occurred), there was talk of it being due to plague, possibly resulting from the work of Japan's Unit 731…”There are two distinct parts to that idea. One is that the deaths were due to plague and the other is that the presence of the microorganisms that cause plague originated with Japan's Unit 731. It is now well known that the bacteria that cause Bubonic plague are endemic to the soil and environment of New Mexico, but that may not have been widely known in the 1940s. I have gone on numerous cave exploration trips in New Mexico as part of my scientific research. Caving involves a lot of rooting around in the dirt, crud, and corruption, and the possibility of contacting plague from this source is always mentioned by whoever is controlling access to the cave. Often, one is required to sign a waiver of liability for this, prior to entry. So, the idea that some residents of Lincoln County might have died of the plague in the 1940s is completely consistent with what is now known about the natural distribution of the Yersinia pestis bacterium that causes plague. This would be a much more likely source of infection for residents in Lincoln county in the 1940s than a hypothetical Japanese balloon.So my question is: do the “official files” that you have access to merely speculate that the deaths were due to plague, or also speculate that the plague bacterium was delivered there by Japanese balloon, or both. In other words, who is talking about the plague bacterium being delivered by balloon, you or the “official files”?
By Larry, at Friday, December 13, 2013
Larry:You say: "So my question is: do the “official files” that you have access to merely speculate that the deaths were due to plague, or also speculate that the plague bacterium was delivered there by Japanese balloon, or both. In other words, who is talking about the plague bacterium being delivered by balloon, you or the “official files”?"The files don't speculate on the plague. The documents contain the comments of the person who did the autopsy of several of the dead and confirm plague. And they make it very clear this was not seen as a natural outbreak.There is also a whole section on how there were suspicions of a deliberate attempt to introduce plague at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM in the same time frame. The official files talk about concerns that the deaths were not due to natural outbreaks (which, yes, do indeed occur in NM), and they do speculate it was down to Unit 731, and this discussion is added to by the fact that a bunch of military intel files follow which are summary type files on novel and interesting Japanese balloon-based methods of potentially delivering plague.I find it strange that you use the words "'...official files' that you have access to..." That almost creates an air of mystery which is not so. They are normal, regular files released via FOIA. Next week I'll scan and send to Rich and if he can stomach to read anymore on Roswell he may even post them!
Nick:Anything I can do to help you make your point, I'm in.RR
By RRRGroup, at Friday, December 13, 2013
Cheers mate! I knew I could count on you to help stir up the shit!
Let me see if I have this right.The deaths from plaque occurred in 1947-1949 which is two to four years after WW2. So now you are saying it wasn't a Paper Clip type operation? The deaths were designated suspicious although the area is ripe with the possibility of plaque.Someone unknown specifically was suspected but no evidence was found..And this came from Japanese balloons? This story line at least for me has become more convoluted than necessary and less coherent.It still does not seem to add up to anything except inference at best and thats a stretch. I look forward to seeing the actual files. The story seems to go in three directions at once.
Bruce: Go back and read my article at Mysterious Universe. It has NOTHING to do with my "Body Snatchers" book and a Japanese Paperclip program. This article focuses on whether, against all the odds, the Japanese launched a sophisticated, manned balloon at Roswell (from where, lets not forget, the 509th that dropped the bombs on Japan was based), but which failed to make its mark, coming down on the Foster Ranch, and its deadly cargo causing the August 1947 outbreaks in the same area just 4 weeks later. This scenario does NOT support "Body Snatchers" AT ALL. Nor is it meant to. It's looking at ANOTHER possibility for the Japanese connection (which, as I have noted before, does have a lot of threads, regardless of what people think of it). It's a hypothesis, based on these new files and revelations. None of us know what really happened at Roswell, and I see nothing wrong in considering new possibilities as new info comes to light.
NickWhat I was recounting were the threads of various theories in your article ( fugo balloons, operation paperclip etc) and the overall innuendo of the theories you presented including this one all focused on a Japanese bad actor(s) which I am still missing a motive for as well as evidence..I mean suspicions are fine but I am not seeing any traction There is nothing wrong with looking at Roswell in a new light but all of the whole "evidence" thus far has been inference without evidence. This seems like more inference to me that doesnt have much glue beyond this. I hope you prove me wrong.Otherwise its a fun sort of dark campfire story which is what it seems like to me at the moment.I wish you all the best of luck in this new and creative variation of a conspiratorial theme. The files might or might not reveal something a bit more tangible.
But every theory for Roswell is "inference without evidence." It probably always will be. And that's me done until Monday!
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